You are absolutely correct, but Republicans are counting on propaganda and confusion caused by "No Labels" and Cornell West to squeak out a victory as they did in 2016, when Jill Stein cost Hillary Clinton the election. And, as you suggest, if Trump (or a clone such as DeSantis, Ramaswamy, etc.) gets in, we will never have another fair election in this country ever again. NEVER.
And no, I don't think that I'm being hyperbolic at all.
Saying the Republicans will end democracy in America is not hyperbole. It’s not just something their opponents are saying about them. IT’S WHAT THEY ARE SAYING THEMSELVES.
And not in vague, coded, “dog-whistle”-like hints. But in clear, short, declarative sentences.
“Anyone who votes against the Democratic Party in 2024 is voting in favor of this plan, whether it’s their intention to do so or not.”
This. 10,000% this.
Anyone who cast their vote for Marianne Williamson or Kennedy Jr or Cornell West or Bernie Sanders OR ANYONE OTHER THAN JOE BIDEN is voting for Trump.
Doesn’t matter if you don’t agree with Biden on all things. Doesn’t matter if you disagree with him on some things, or even if you disagree with him on a lot of things.
A vote for anyone other than Biden, whatever self-righteous lie you tell yourself, is a vote for the end of the freedoms you no doubt claim are sacred (even as, by not voting for Biden, you’re voting to have those freedoms ripped from you).
Both the bus and subway analogies are great. I've liked to use the elevator analogy myself, because it also allows you to show the option of people refusing to vote at all. As in someone getting on an elevator but then refusing to push any of the buttons... and then bitching and moaning that the elevator never arrives at the floor they wanted.
As great and smart as George Carlin was, that was maybe his biggest and worst blind spot; saying that he refused to vote and encouraging others to also not vote, and then claiming that anything bad the government did wasn't _his_ fault because he refused to take part in the process. That's _not_ how voting in a democratic system works; refusing to engage in the system only cedes power to others, and the ones most likely to benefit from your refusal to engage are the ones who abuse the system (Republicans gerrymandering and making it harder and harder for black people and other minorities to vote.) It's the same as casting a spoiler vote out of spite for the better of the major candidates not being "perfect," such as for a Jill Stein or a Bernie Sanders or a Robert Kennedy* type; the only thing doing that accomplishes is to cede power to _the wrong people._
*Although Robert Kennedy is actually a horrible, horrible twisted nutcase and anyone who supports him is out of their goddamn minds.
The best analogy I've heard/read is that when voting, it is like looking for a bus/subway route. You will almost never find one that takes you exactly to your desired destination. What you are trying to do is to find the one that gets you closest. So, while the Democrats may be far from perfect, they certainly take us closer to where we as a society ultimately want to be (or at least I hope so).
Exactly. Used that one myself (although I use busses).
No bus will take you right to your doorstep, so you take whatever gets you closest. No candidate will be perfect, so you vote for the one that comes closest and (and this is key) *has a chance of being elected*.
Green Party candidate X may be exactly what I dream of, but since they aren’t the Democratic or Republican nominee THEY WILL NOT WIN. Reality is it will come down to Biden or Trump. So any vote, no matter who for, comes down to being a vote for one of those two.
Biden is the bus that gets you close to home. Trump is the bus that takes you 1000 miles in the other direction.
“a certain demographic of American voter who has zero sense of societal responsibility and, instead, makes voting decisions based their contrarian rejection of the two party system”
In other words, the idiots to whom *feeling* self-righteous and morally superior is vastly more important than actually being right or moral. Those who don’t care at all about actually improving things for themselves (let alone anyone else) as long as they can smugly claim they do, and that’s why they’re actually working against achieving any of the things they claim to support.
Exactly so. Because when you can’t win on ideas and policies, you spread hate and dissension and fear. And then you work from within to stack the courts in your favor and also gerrymander. We are seeing a slow moving but still dangerous coup in real time here.
Uh huh. Funny, we did all this same bus- metaphor crap to "save democracy" in 2020,and yet here we are again; with your party trying to whip votes instead of earn them. How long do you expect to drag this "Perils of Pauline" act out to keep your precious Democrats from being held to account for their own political games? 4 years? 8? Until the Sun goes red-giant?
You can talk fake-tough all you want; but its having less and less impact on people who want a real left option in American politics, instead of a fake one that only blocks the way. As long as your party's power is not our power, free agency should be the only goal the left pursues. We were the only ones actively fighting the right during the Trump years; and we ain't going away. And if we gotta fight you too, then so be it.
We are not your "allies", either; allies don't act as your party has towards us.
You're already complicit, to our minds, of elevating these fascists through the "Pied Piper Strategy"; and refusing to fight them as they should've been fought from the jump.
Your party did nothing with the power we helped give you in 2020, because you *knew* we were gonna be right back here again, having this same garbage debate; and you'd be demanding our votes, in exchange for more nothing. And you'll do it in '28 too, if you can.
Your party has no trust or goodwill to lean on left.
Your disapproval has no weight now, because your "approval" had none three years ago.
"We were the only ones actively fighting the right during the Trump years"
Oh what a load of *horseshit.* Throwing away votes on hopeless candidates accomplishes nothing but handing victories to far right demagogues; it isn't doing a *damn thing* to "fight the right." Standing outside throwing rocks and claiming moral superiority doesn't do a damn thing to help anyone; the ones who go inside and get dirty from doing the *actual* fighting are who get things done... all the while being pelted by the rocks thrown from behind their backs by people like you who claim to be on the same side.
Politics is like a tug of war; you can't win by pulling the rope all over to your side in one big jerk, and if you try the rope will only slip away, leaving you with nothing but bloody hands. The way that you *actually* win is by getting into the mud in the center, and *slowly* dragging the rope across to your side.
And this disgusting "if we gotta fight you too, then so be it" attitude only reveals your belligerent circular firing squad mentality that shows why the perfect is the enemy of the good; *nothing* is ever perfect, and your refusal to vote for the good because you will only ever accept an imaginary perfect utopian unicorn candidate ends up doing nothing but stabbing all of us in the throat.
The left put bodies on the streets in Charlottesville; where were the Democrats?
The left put more on the streets in Minneapolis when George Floyd was murdered; where were the Democrats?
The left brawled with Nazis, went to jail, fought the right with every breath we took from 2016-2020, and *then* elected a Democrat, even though the Party sabotaged our nominee in favor of a guy who came in 4th place.
Then what did your party do? Same thing it did from 2016-2020, sat on its hands; and when questioned about that, told us, "Our power is not your power."
Your party wants to move center-right, that's its privilege. What's not its privilege is an inherent right to left votes, when they refuse to support what the Left wants.
Fuck your "compromise" metaphors; we did that already, and it got us nothing. We owe you no energy or labor for you to continue to take the power we give you and lock it away from us.
I imagine there were plenty of people who identified as Democrats protesting at Charlottesville.
The Democratic Party never "sabotaged" Bernie Sanders, get you head out of the conspiracy theory tunnel and learn how politics and political parties and voting actually work in the real world.
I get so tired of people like you who claim that the Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans. Your belligerent divisiveness accomplishes nothing but driving wedges between people who should be allies against our _actual_ rivals on the Right, and to do so you exaggerate minor differences in ideology, and anger people who would otherwise want to help you, and your combative tactics would only end up hurting poor, sick, and underprivileged people like me.
I'm sure you imagine a lot of things; but as I recall, your party contributed nothing to the antifascist action at Charlottesville; beyond some belated, press-release hand-wringing and a little "bothsidesism" after the fact.
You contention that we "should be allies" contains the same obtuse chutzpah as your imagining your party to be leaders in the fight the left has carried on against fascism, largely without help and even with some obstruction by your party.
Your dismissal of the DNC's documented subversion of leftward elements within your party is no surprise, but it definitely does not help your case that we "should be" anything but your enemies. You can't accuse us of "dividing" what you've already broken, whether you try and DARVO away that breaking or not.
Admit it, you don't want us as "allies"; you want us *behind* you, bearing all the abuse and getting none of the power.
If you're "sick of" being called out for that, just imagine how sick we are of putting up with it.
At best you are the idiot left. When Hitler came to power the leftists were happy because they knew how bad he was and said they would win the next election easily. How well did that work out for them? Please not the playbook the Right has just released. Either you are a troll or a self righteous jackanapes.
And yet you wonder why there's a divide between us. And why, to us, you lack the trust and standing that is necessary to lead. Nonetheless,
you cannot bully or shame your way into our votes this time. We let that happen last time, and saw how little your party valued our help. No amount of your belief in your own righteousness can wipe away your party's political tactics. Its actions have long drowned out your words.
Absolutely right! I’ve been saying it to anyone who’ll listen. We can’t afford a repeat of 2000, which was bad enough but there is so much more at stake here, like you wrote our very existence as a free country, a democratic sanctuary, a civilized nation of laws and checks and balances
Then get out there and make sure Democrats have huge majorities in Congress and state legislatures in order to pass this agenda. Undermining Democrats will only guarantee divided government at best and fascist government at worst. And you won't get anything close to what you want without Democratic majorities.
You are absolutely correct, but Republicans are counting on propaganda and confusion caused by "No Labels" and Cornell West to squeak out a victory as they did in 2016, when Jill Stein cost Hillary Clinton the election. And, as you suggest, if Trump (or a clone such as DeSantis, Ramaswamy, etc.) gets in, we will never have another fair election in this country ever again. NEVER.
And no, I don't think that I'm being hyperbolic at all.
Exactly right. You’re not exaggerating at all.
Saying the Republicans will end democracy in America is not hyperbole. It’s not just something their opponents are saying about them. IT’S WHAT THEY ARE SAYING THEMSELVES.
And not in vague, coded, “dog-whistle”-like hints. But in clear, short, declarative sentences.
“Anyone who votes against the Democratic Party in 2024 is voting in favor of this plan, whether it’s their intention to do so or not.”
This. 10,000% this.
Anyone who cast their vote for Marianne Williamson or Kennedy Jr or Cornell West or Bernie Sanders OR ANYONE OTHER THAN JOE BIDEN is voting for Trump.
Doesn’t matter if you don’t agree with Biden on all things. Doesn’t matter if you disagree with him on some things, or even if you disagree with him on a lot of things.
A vote for anyone other than Biden, whatever self-righteous lie you tell yourself, is a vote for the end of the freedoms you no doubt claim are sacred (even as, by not voting for Biden, you’re voting to have those freedoms ripped from you).
Both the bus and subway analogies are great. I've liked to use the elevator analogy myself, because it also allows you to show the option of people refusing to vote at all. As in someone getting on an elevator but then refusing to push any of the buttons... and then bitching and moaning that the elevator never arrives at the floor they wanted.
As great and smart as George Carlin was, that was maybe his biggest and worst blind spot; saying that he refused to vote and encouraging others to also not vote, and then claiming that anything bad the government did wasn't _his_ fault because he refused to take part in the process. That's _not_ how voting in a democratic system works; refusing to engage in the system only cedes power to others, and the ones most likely to benefit from your refusal to engage are the ones who abuse the system (Republicans gerrymandering and making it harder and harder for black people and other minorities to vote.) It's the same as casting a spoiler vote out of spite for the better of the major candidates not being "perfect," such as for a Jill Stein or a Bernie Sanders or a Robert Kennedy* type; the only thing doing that accomplishes is to cede power to _the wrong people._
*Although Robert Kennedy is actually a horrible, horrible twisted nutcase and anyone who supports him is out of their goddamn minds.
The elevator also perfectly captures the stupidity of not voting. Gonna add that to the repertoire. Thanks.
Anytime, Christopher! :)
The best analogy I've heard/read is that when voting, it is like looking for a bus/subway route. You will almost never find one that takes you exactly to your desired destination. What you are trying to do is to find the one that gets you closest. So, while the Democrats may be far from perfect, they certainly take us closer to where we as a society ultimately want to be (or at least I hope so).
Exactly. Used that one myself (although I use busses).
No bus will take you right to your doorstep, so you take whatever gets you closest. No candidate will be perfect, so you vote for the one that comes closest and (and this is key) *has a chance of being elected*.
Green Party candidate X may be exactly what I dream of, but since they aren’t the Democratic or Republican nominee THEY WILL NOT WIN. Reality is it will come down to Biden or Trump. So any vote, no matter who for, comes down to being a vote for one of those two.
Biden is the bus that gets you close to home. Trump is the bus that takes you 1000 miles in the other direction.
^^^^YES, 100% correct.
“a certain demographic of American voter who has zero sense of societal responsibility and, instead, makes voting decisions based their contrarian rejection of the two party system”
In other words, the idiots to whom *feeling* self-righteous and morally superior is vastly more important than actually being right or moral. Those who don’t care at all about actually improving things for themselves (let alone anyone else) as long as they can smugly claim they do, and that’s why they’re actually working against achieving any of the things they claim to support.
Exactly so. Because when you can’t win on ideas and policies, you spread hate and dissension and fear. And then you work from within to stack the courts in your favor and also gerrymander. We are seeing a slow moving but still dangerous coup in real time here.
Uh huh. Funny, we did all this same bus- metaphor crap to "save democracy" in 2020,and yet here we are again; with your party trying to whip votes instead of earn them. How long do you expect to drag this "Perils of Pauline" act out to keep your precious Democrats from being held to account for their own political games? 4 years? 8? Until the Sun goes red-giant?
You can talk fake-tough all you want; but its having less and less impact on people who want a real left option in American politics, instead of a fake one that only blocks the way. As long as your party's power is not our power, free agency should be the only goal the left pursues. We were the only ones actively fighting the right during the Trump years; and we ain't going away. And if we gotta fight you too, then so be it.
If Trump wins in 2024, America will become a fascist state. Any vote or any activism that makes it more likely is complicity.
Then hear this:
We are not your reserve army of votes.
We are not your "allies", either; allies don't act as your party has towards us.
You're already complicit, to our minds, of elevating these fascists through the "Pied Piper Strategy"; and refusing to fight them as they should've been fought from the jump.
Your party did nothing with the power we helped give you in 2020, because you *knew* we were gonna be right back here again, having this same garbage debate; and you'd be demanding our votes, in exchange for more nothing. And you'll do it in '28 too, if you can.
Your party has no trust or goodwill to lean on left.
Your disapproval has no weight now, because your "approval" had none three years ago.
"We were the only ones actively fighting the right during the Trump years"
Oh what a load of *horseshit.* Throwing away votes on hopeless candidates accomplishes nothing but handing victories to far right demagogues; it isn't doing a *damn thing* to "fight the right." Standing outside throwing rocks and claiming moral superiority doesn't do a damn thing to help anyone; the ones who go inside and get dirty from doing the *actual* fighting are who get things done... all the while being pelted by the rocks thrown from behind their backs by people like you who claim to be on the same side.
Politics is like a tug of war; you can't win by pulling the rope all over to your side in one big jerk, and if you try the rope will only slip away, leaving you with nothing but bloody hands. The way that you *actually* win is by getting into the mud in the center, and *slowly* dragging the rope across to your side.
And this disgusting "if we gotta fight you too, then so be it" attitude only reveals your belligerent circular firing squad mentality that shows why the perfect is the enemy of the good; *nothing* is ever perfect, and your refusal to vote for the good because you will only ever accept an imaginary perfect utopian unicorn candidate ends up doing nothing but stabbing all of us in the throat.
The left put bodies on the streets in Charlottesville; where were the Democrats?
The left put more on the streets in Minneapolis when George Floyd was murdered; where were the Democrats?
The left brawled with Nazis, went to jail, fought the right with every breath we took from 2016-2020, and *then* elected a Democrat, even though the Party sabotaged our nominee in favor of a guy who came in 4th place.
Then what did your party do? Same thing it did from 2016-2020, sat on its hands; and when questioned about that, told us, "Our power is not your power."
Your party wants to move center-right, that's its privilege. What's not its privilege is an inherent right to left votes, when they refuse to support what the Left wants.
Fuck your "compromise" metaphors; we did that already, and it got us nothing. We owe you no energy or labor for you to continue to take the power we give you and lock it away from us.
I imagine there were plenty of people who identified as Democrats protesting at Charlottesville.
The Democratic Party never "sabotaged" Bernie Sanders, get you head out of the conspiracy theory tunnel and learn how politics and political parties and voting actually work in the real world.
I get so tired of people like you who claim that the Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans. Your belligerent divisiveness accomplishes nothing but driving wedges between people who should be allies against our _actual_ rivals on the Right, and to do so you exaggerate minor differences in ideology, and anger people who would otherwise want to help you, and your combative tactics would only end up hurting poor, sick, and underprivileged people like me.
I'm sure you imagine a lot of things; but as I recall, your party contributed nothing to the antifascist action at Charlottesville; beyond some belated, press-release hand-wringing and a little "bothsidesism" after the fact.
You contention that we "should be allies" contains the same obtuse chutzpah as your imagining your party to be leaders in the fight the left has carried on against fascism, largely without help and even with some obstruction by your party.
Your dismissal of the DNC's documented subversion of leftward elements within your party is no surprise, but it definitely does not help your case that we "should be" anything but your enemies. You can't accuse us of "dividing" what you've already broken, whether you try and DARVO away that breaking or not.
Admit it, you don't want us as "allies"; you want us *behind* you, bearing all the abuse and getting none of the power.
If you're "sick of" being called out for that, just imagine how sick we are of putting up with it.
At best you are the idiot left. When Hitler came to power the leftists were happy because they knew how bad he was and said they would win the next election easily. How well did that work out for them? Please not the playbook the Right has just released. Either you are a troll or a self righteous jackanapes.
And yet you wonder why there's a divide between us. And why, to us, you lack the trust and standing that is necessary to lead. Nonetheless,
you cannot bully or shame your way into our votes this time. We let that happen last time, and saw how little your party valued our help. No amount of your belief in your own righteousness can wipe away your party's political tactics. Its actions have long drowned out your words.
Absolutely right! I’ve been saying it to anyone who’ll listen. We can’t afford a repeat of 2000, which was bad enough but there is so much more at stake here, like you wrote our very existence as a free country, a democratic sanctuary, a civilized nation of laws and checks and balances
Perhaps I should list all of the vast differences between the party platforms and the demographics that support them.
On second thought, never mind. I'd be wasting my time.
Then get out there and make sure Democrats have huge majorities in Congress and state legislatures in order to pass this agenda. Undermining Democrats will only guarantee divided government at best and fascist government at worst. And you won't get anything close to what you want without Democratic majorities.
Sure, raise the bar, but maybe devise a way to do it without damaging the only party standing between us and fascism/extinction.