Nov 14, 2023·edited Nov 14, 2023Liked by Ben Cohen
It seems to me an awful lot of people are committing a fallacy. That being, it is necessary to determine who is the “good guy“ and who is the “bad guy” (a couple of the commenters before me seem to recognize this fallacy). First of all, it is *not* necessary. Second of all, there are no good guys in this one. Maybe you can make an argument that the Netanyahu government is a “bad guy”, but Hamas is a “worse bad guy” (that seems to be the approach that, e.g., Malcolm Nance is taking). I don’t know that that makes that much of a difference, and I don’t think that discussion is useful, to the contrary, it gets in the way.
And you know what, Ben? I just upgraded to paid. 🤔😉😊
“...but I’m not going to filter my opinion going forward. As always, I welcome pushback and debate...”
Respectively, you shouldn’t and you should. Which is a large part of why I stick around. I don’t always agree with the point of view or conclusions (typically I do because I share the liberal bent of the people who write for the Banter, but not always) and appreciate very much that I or other commenters here can then debate things.
The “I don’t like what you said, so I’m leaving“ attitude, particularly when dealing with a site that is open to debate, simply shows how much the person who is unsubscribing wants their worldview to be an echo chamber.
I have truly appreciated your candor about how and what you think about this. I'm not sure I had shared any of your blog-posts prior to the War but have shared some of your recent ones on this topic.
2. I appreciate Haggai Matar's comment in The Nation: The terror we Israelis feel now is the daily reality for Palestinians. (This said before the Gaza invasion.)
I don't always agree with you -- case in point, that Jews are a race, and not an ethnicity or religion -- but I appreciate the conversation and am always evolving and expanding my worldview. John Oliver made some good points looking at why this war is so divisive. In my opinion, Gen Z was raised in the Marvel Universe, where there's clearly a good side and a bad side, and that a singular white savior (in most of the MCU films and TV shows) is all society needs to persevere. That's why some students and activists appear to support Hamas's barbaric attack, viewing them as heroes taking on Bibi's power grab colonialism. These kids view hijabs as fashion statements, not taking in the reason why they exist (to subjugate women instead of mandating that men find a way to control their sexual desire). Back here, the GOP has abandoned their political platform to simply block anything the democrats want to do, they view themselves as good and the dems as evil with no room to collaborate or compromise. I have yet to be convinced the opposite isn't true, as everyone I know who supports Trump (most of my family), are bitter, under-informed racists, homophobes, transphobes and misogynists. But I'm sure there are many good people who are just in it for lower taxes, easy guns, and guilt-free, unregulated pollution. When you boil down the middle eastern situation to its core, it's two tribes battling to the death over a piece of dirt that each feels holds religious value. Coexistence and compromise is considered defeat. When many religions feel earthbound life is simply a preparation for a glorious afterlife, what value does earthbound life even have? At least the Jewish faith places value on doing mitzvot during life on Eretz wheras Islam promises an absurd 72 virgins to martyrs. Don't get me started on "honor killings" and two dishwashers. So, with everyone entrenched, we're as likely to see a peaceful solution there in our lifetimes as we are to see one here. And soon, the radical left and radical right wings here will escalate domestic bombings, shootings, stabbings, burnings, and other atrocities in the name of God which translates to more poor paying in blood for the rich to get richer, free of the tyranny of the IRS and EPA.
Thanks for this -- very interesting. Re the race issue: I think it is very much a real thing, but not in the way 19th century Europeans thought it was. Genetics allow us to trace people's genomes to find out where their ancestors are from. Mine are Ashkenazi Jews from northern and central Europe. This is a genetically distinct "racial" group. I'm not religious in any way, but I do consider myself to be ethnically/racially Jewish (and British/Irish according to my 23andMe).
I think part of the problem is defining the race and a religion with the same term. There weren't Christians before Jesus. but there were Europeans. There weren't Muslims before Mohammed, but there were Arabs. But if "Jewish" is a race, there were Jews before Judaism?
Not all Jews are genetically Jewish, so I think there should be a distinction between ethnicity/race and religion. For example, I have a Peruvian friend who converted to Judaism, so she's technically more Jewish than I am, but was not raised in a Jewish family, and has no genetic links to the Jewish diaspora. I think this difference should be recognized.
The state of Israel recognizes this in their Right of Return law. Anyone with a Jewish grandparent can gain citizenship in Israel regardless of their religious status. Those without Jewish ancestry must convert.
And Gen X was raised in Transformers/Decepticons, and Baby Boomers on “The American Way” and whatever the 1920’s generation was raised on ....
I think there’s a mistake in declaring one generation too different from those before or after it. The idea of a “white savior”, for example, is vastly older than any Gen Z-er (and much more widely accepted among the prior generations where racial inequities were much less recognized than they are now).
"It didn’t seem to occur to conservatives that black people had more immediate concerns after watching a police officer slowly, and very brazenly murdering a black man in broad daylight and in front of dozens of witnesses."
If that's what actually happened.
As for Gaza: With the world's largesse flowing into its coffers, Palestinians could have built a paradise; instead, it all went into Hamas's tunnels and weaponry.
As for its two-million impoverished citizens: Less than half that number were there originally.
A little birth control works wonders. In our own inner cities too. If only.
"Every Jew I know is terrified by the insane rise in antisemitism and most are in a state of shock that their supposed political allies have not just abandoned them, but are actively cheering for Hamas."
I don't want to diminish your fear and sadness, nor that of those you know. But for me, as someone who's Jewish, this doesn't really describe my experience. The rise in antisemitism has been a serious worry for some time, and I don't personally feel more threatened now than I hae for awhile (which is to say, somewhat, but not an overwhelming amount.) I don't feel like the bulk of my political allies have been cheering on Hamas. I do feel like a certain number of people I consider allies and friends have been speaking in my name to defend or deflect from Israeli violence in Gaza. I find that really distressing.
Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't feel what you feel. I just know many Jewish people who would not describe their experiences in this way, and it may be worth considering that when you address this issue in the future.
“We’ve just seen a terrorist organization slaughter 1,300 innocent Jews on social media, then in response to the genocide, protests erupt around the world in defense of it. “
Oct 7 was a Friday, the people who turned up to ‘pro-Palestine’ protests on the weekend of the 8th and 9th are the shameful ones, Israel had not even hit back on Gaza at that point but for thousands of people their instinctual reaction to the slaughter of 1300 Jews was to race out and protest against the Jewish State and in favour of the people who did the killing
“. I always thought that the people Maher complained about were a tiny minority “
I’ve actually had a related but slightly different lightbulb moment
When I first saw people saying crazy stuff on social media that was somewhat related to critical theory and/or identity politics my initial reaction was to think
‘this is the problem when complicated ideas escape from the academy into the general public and stupid people who don’t understand the ideas properly grab hold of their half formed or cookie cutter versions of complex ideas and apply them incorrectly or without nuance and make the actual ideas look bad “
But I’ve seen way too many credentialed writers and (much more troubling) tenured professors often from prestigious schools saying some of the most batshit crazy stuff based on these theories that it’s clearly not just idiots twisting and misunderstanding complex but useful ideas and is instead just proof the intellectual basis of these ideas is itself fundamentally flawed
Looking good to be hired in the next week or two after a few weeks unemployed so you’ll be getting at least one paid subscriber back specifically because you’re saying the right thing on the identity politics/israel issue
Dear Ben. I'm sorry my original comment upset you. I keep reading it over and don't understand why you thought it was so terrible.
I wrote a second comment after I saw you used me as an example of a "bad" comment... I just deleted that second comment, in case it would just make you feel worse. I know you aren't in the mindset today to hear what I was saying. (HTG, please tell me what you thought was so terrible that you used me as an example of something awful.)
Please tell me what you need to hear instead to make you feel safer or more "heard".
I want you to be happy, and not scared. All my friends are scared these days. Jewish friends for sure, but also non-religious and non-tribal people are scared.
I want to help lower the temperature on here... Just want to say I'm so sorry any of this awful stuff is happening. And I sincerely wish we could see an end to terrorism.
Personally, I'm sick to death of feeling scared. Sounds to me like you feel like that too.
It seems to me an awful lot of people are committing a fallacy. That being, it is necessary to determine who is the “good guy“ and who is the “bad guy” (a couple of the commenters before me seem to recognize this fallacy). First of all, it is *not* necessary. Second of all, there are no good guys in this one. Maybe you can make an argument that the Netanyahu government is a “bad guy”, but Hamas is a “worse bad guy” (that seems to be the approach that, e.g., Malcolm Nance is taking). I don’t know that that makes that much of a difference, and I don’t think that discussion is useful, to the contrary, it gets in the way.
And you know what, Ben? I just upgraded to paid. 🤔😉😊
Ben just gained another subscriber in myself, also.
Thank you Lisa! Genuinely appreciated :)
Many thanks Jeff! Your support is very much appreciated :)
“...but I’m not going to filter my opinion going forward. As always, I welcome pushback and debate...”
Respectively, you shouldn’t and you should. Which is a large part of why I stick around. I don’t always agree with the point of view or conclusions (typically I do because I share the liberal bent of the people who write for the Banter, but not always) and appreciate very much that I or other commenters here can then debate things.
The “I don’t like what you said, so I’m leaving“ attitude, particularly when dealing with a site that is open to debate, simply shows how much the person who is unsubscribing wants their worldview to be an echo chamber.
I have truly appreciated your candor about how and what you think about this. I'm not sure I had shared any of your blog-posts prior to the War but have shared some of your recent ones on this topic.
Much appreciated Guy.
1. Two wrongs don't make a right. Goes both ways.
2. I appreciate Haggai Matar's comment in The Nation: The terror we Israelis feel now is the daily reality for Palestinians. (This said before the Gaza invasion.)
I don't always agree with you -- case in point, that Jews are a race, and not an ethnicity or religion -- but I appreciate the conversation and am always evolving and expanding my worldview. John Oliver made some good points looking at why this war is so divisive. In my opinion, Gen Z was raised in the Marvel Universe, where there's clearly a good side and a bad side, and that a singular white savior (in most of the MCU films and TV shows) is all society needs to persevere. That's why some students and activists appear to support Hamas's barbaric attack, viewing them as heroes taking on Bibi's power grab colonialism. These kids view hijabs as fashion statements, not taking in the reason why they exist (to subjugate women instead of mandating that men find a way to control their sexual desire). Back here, the GOP has abandoned their political platform to simply block anything the democrats want to do, they view themselves as good and the dems as evil with no room to collaborate or compromise. I have yet to be convinced the opposite isn't true, as everyone I know who supports Trump (most of my family), are bitter, under-informed racists, homophobes, transphobes and misogynists. But I'm sure there are many good people who are just in it for lower taxes, easy guns, and guilt-free, unregulated pollution. When you boil down the middle eastern situation to its core, it's two tribes battling to the death over a piece of dirt that each feels holds religious value. Coexistence and compromise is considered defeat. When many religions feel earthbound life is simply a preparation for a glorious afterlife, what value does earthbound life even have? At least the Jewish faith places value on doing mitzvot during life on Eretz wheras Islam promises an absurd 72 virgins to martyrs. Don't get me started on "honor killings" and two dishwashers. So, with everyone entrenched, we're as likely to see a peaceful solution there in our lifetimes as we are to see one here. And soon, the radical left and radical right wings here will escalate domestic bombings, shootings, stabbings, burnings, and other atrocities in the name of God which translates to more poor paying in blood for the rich to get richer, free of the tyranny of the IRS and EPA.
Thanks for this -- very interesting. Re the race issue: I think it is very much a real thing, but not in the way 19th century Europeans thought it was. Genetics allow us to trace people's genomes to find out where their ancestors are from. Mine are Ashkenazi Jews from northern and central Europe. This is a genetically distinct "racial" group. I'm not religious in any way, but I do consider myself to be ethnically/racially Jewish (and British/Irish according to my 23andMe).
I think part of the problem is defining the race and a religion with the same term. There weren't Christians before Jesus. but there were Europeans. There weren't Muslims before Mohammed, but there were Arabs. But if "Jewish" is a race, there were Jews before Judaism?
There is, according to geneticists, an established "biological basis of Jewishness":
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2012-05-07/ty-article/dna-links-prove-jews-are-a-race-says-genetics-expert/0000017f-ed4a-d639-af7f-eddf46080000
Not all Jews are genetically Jewish, so I think there should be a distinction between ethnicity/race and religion. For example, I have a Peruvian friend who converted to Judaism, so she's technically more Jewish than I am, but was not raised in a Jewish family, and has no genetic links to the Jewish diaspora. I think this difference should be recognized.
The state of Israel recognizes this in their Right of Return law. Anyone with a Jewish grandparent can gain citizenship in Israel regardless of their religious status. Those without Jewish ancestry must convert.
And Gen X was raised in Transformers/Decepticons, and Baby Boomers on “The American Way” and whatever the 1920’s generation was raised on ....
I think there’s a mistake in declaring one generation too different from those before or after it. The idea of a “white savior”, for example, is vastly older than any Gen Z-er (and much more widely accepted among the prior generations where racial inequities were much less recognized than they are now).
"It didn’t seem to occur to conservatives that black people had more immediate concerns after watching a police officer slowly, and very brazenly murdering a black man in broad daylight and in front of dozens of witnesses."
If that's what actually happened.
As for Gaza: With the world's largesse flowing into its coffers, Palestinians could have built a paradise; instead, it all went into Hamas's tunnels and weaponry.
As for its two-million impoverished citizens: Less than half that number were there originally.
A little birth control works wonders. In our own inner cities too. If only.
"Every Jew I know is terrified by the insane rise in antisemitism and most are in a state of shock that their supposed political allies have not just abandoned them, but are actively cheering for Hamas."
I don't want to diminish your fear and sadness, nor that of those you know. But for me, as someone who's Jewish, this doesn't really describe my experience. The rise in antisemitism has been a serious worry for some time, and I don't personally feel more threatened now than I hae for awhile (which is to say, somewhat, but not an overwhelming amount.) I don't feel like the bulk of my political allies have been cheering on Hamas. I do feel like a certain number of people I consider allies and friends have been speaking in my name to defend or deflect from Israeli violence in Gaza. I find that really distressing.
Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't feel what you feel. I just know many Jewish people who would not describe their experiences in this way, and it may be worth considering that when you address this issue in the future.
Fair enough. I was in London when all of this happened and the fear was palpable.
“We’ve just seen a terrorist organization slaughter 1,300 innocent Jews on social media, then in response to the genocide, protests erupt around the world in defense of it. “
Oct 7 was a Friday, the people who turned up to ‘pro-Palestine’ protests on the weekend of the 8th and 9th are the shameful ones, Israel had not even hit back on Gaza at that point but for thousands of people their instinctual reaction to the slaughter of 1300 Jews was to race out and protest against the Jewish State and in favour of the people who did the killing
“. I always thought that the people Maher complained about were a tiny minority “
I’ve actually had a related but slightly different lightbulb moment
When I first saw people saying crazy stuff on social media that was somewhat related to critical theory and/or identity politics my initial reaction was to think
‘this is the problem when complicated ideas escape from the academy into the general public and stupid people who don’t understand the ideas properly grab hold of their half formed or cookie cutter versions of complex ideas and apply them incorrectly or without nuance and make the actual ideas look bad “
But I’ve seen way too many credentialed writers and (much more troubling) tenured professors often from prestigious schools saying some of the most batshit crazy stuff based on these theories that it’s clearly not just idiots twisting and misunderstanding complex but useful ideas and is instead just proof the intellectual basis of these ideas is itself fundamentally flawed
“Along with another exodus of subscribers,”
Looking good to be hired in the next week or two after a few weeks unemployed so you’ll be getting at least one paid subscriber back specifically because you’re saying the right thing on the identity politics/israel issue
Dear Ben. I'm sorry my original comment upset you. I keep reading it over and don't understand why you thought it was so terrible.
I wrote a second comment after I saw you used me as an example of a "bad" comment... I just deleted that second comment, in case it would just make you feel worse. I know you aren't in the mindset today to hear what I was saying. (HTG, please tell me what you thought was so terrible that you used me as an example of something awful.)
Please tell me what you need to hear instead to make you feel safer or more "heard".
I want you to be happy, and not scared. All my friends are scared these days. Jewish friends for sure, but also non-religious and non-tribal people are scared.
I want to help lower the temperature on here... Just want to say I'm so sorry any of this awful stuff is happening. And I sincerely wish we could see an end to terrorism.
Personally, I'm sick to death of feeling scared. Sounds to me like you feel like that too.
Anyway, if you want me to unsubscribe I will...
I didn't use you as a "bad comment"! Please re-read! Thanks for the kind words either way :)
OMG... I just reread it... and fug-moi... I'm an idiot! Might be time to take a remedial reading class. I embarrass myself! 🤪
I am so sorry... I totally skipped the line before you quoted me. I'm so relieved!!! And yes. I love The Banter and really didn't want to unsubscribe.
Whew! Forward!