In response to a Members Only piece I wrote this week on identity politics potentially tanking the Democrats’ chances in 2022, some readers chimed in with their thoughts on the subject. I wanted to have a separate discussion thread for the topic because I think it is important, and not just because “wokeness” is damaging to the Democratic Party, but because it is arguably damaging society too.
What do you think about identity politics? Do we need to analyze everything through the lens of race, gender, class, sexuality? Have college campuses gone too far with their safe spaces, trigger warnings, and banning of controversial figures etc, etc? Leave comments below!
I am a White Male, and I feel like the common understanding of "identity politics" is a really watered down version of saying "well they are just using the (fill in the blank Black/woman) card". Meaning it's basically saying that leading with your identity when interacting with political discussion makes it more divisive, but I worry that it is only seen to be divisive by mainly White people and mainly Men. Put another way you would not say it is divisive to say "As a teacher, I have take issue with Charter Schools." Your identity is pretty important to the conversation as it helps clarify where your position begins from. It may seem onerous to people like myself (again White guy) because we are in society seen as the default, and so we don't have to think about it as much, so when we are forced to it makes many of us feel uncomfortable, that initial gut reaction referred to as "White fragility" (another sticking point). Ultimately, I feel like while it may feel like it's losing us ground especially with awful Republican messaging, it ultimately energizes our base (a growing BIPOC population) to let them know that when they lead with who they are in the discussion we don't automatically poo-poo them. We have think of politics as long and short game. The Republicans play the very short, instant gratitification game and the Democrats should lean into showing support as a big tent party, and we as White people should show support because it leads to record turnout in GA, TX, and AZ. Which will turn off the moment we disregard BIPOC folks. So my advice is sometimes just not say anything, and listen to what is said instead of worrying that people lead with their lens.
I generally follow that rule (not saying anything) and do my best to listen. However, I feel the movement has seeped into society (and the Democratic Party) in an unhealthy way that is fostering more division. I think identity politics has its merits, just as Marxism does, but only as a lens through which to analyze history/society. It's one of many tools and an interesting perspective, but it cannot become the dominant ideology. Taken to an extreme, it becomes cult like and potentially dangerous.
I see the worry that we can have about the cult like nature of unchecked social justice. In fact it was one of the things I had to learn to get over because doing social justice work on the cake of that is social theory and critical thinking, the frosting is grace and humility. Grace to allow people to learn where they are, and not expect them to be in the same level of experience, education and understanding. Humility in that It is a tough pill to swallow to learn as someone who wants change that people just don't owe you anything, and that I know for me I really struggle with that. Just recently a BIPOC female student had a conversation with another BIPOC racial justice facilitator, and the facilitator said, "I appreciate your passion, but it's going to be important to have grace, and be patient with where people are." The student said, "I want to I just can't mentally get there yet." That was powerful to me because it's not just a one way conversation BIPOC to White it's literally 320 million different conversations that take into consideration all the things we bring with us. I know it might be scary to think of a bunch of scared active college students running around throwing social theory and uber-liberal norms into the atmosphere, and it may seem "cultish"....but they are kids, barely new adults on their journey to learn the eventual hardships that truly come with making the change they want happen, same thing with other liberals. We may need to afford them some grace to say. I remember when I was in my 20's and was like "why isn't anyone doing anything!" We want so badly to be heard, and it's a radical position to say "I hear you, what do you need from me."
So do we ignore issues of race and gender in order to have a better chance of winning? I will agree that maybe things on college campuses have gone a bit far (college is where you're supposed to be exposed to stuff that makes you uncomfortable so you can learn how to think for yourself, not to seek safe spaces where you won't be challenged), but racism, homophobia/transphobia, and misogyny are real societal problems that need to be addressed. And we're getting better about that, but we've still got a really long way to go.
I think this is where the problem lies -- all of those issues are of course incredibly important. The problem is when militant activists start trying to control the language around the debate, and thus exert undue control over it. It's like some sort of weird religion you can only be involved in if you know all the terminology. I can't keep up with it all and thus don't pay it much attention.
Great take on it. I'm just wary of blaming the Purity Left, as y'all call it. They are indeed a real problem for us moving forward but I don't really want to get into both-sides-ism either. But I think you're right--we just need to focus on what's important regardless of what others think. I love the energy of the young people on our side, but I also know how full of shit I was when I was in my late teens and early twenties. How do we, as a movement, focus on the really important parts?
I gotta say...If someone has a problem with so called "political identity" and "wokeness" to the point where they vote against the Democratic Party because they're too "woke"...well then, the problem is on them! And my advice to them on that problem of theirs is to...you know...GROW THE GODDAMNED FUCK UP, NOW!!!
I just don't pay much attention to it. I have difficulty keeping up with all the terminology, so I go by one simple rule: All people should be treated with respect regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. I feel like there is so much detail in identity politics that is is overwhelming, much like the list of side effects at the end of a prescription drug advertisement.
Couldn't agree more. I have no problem calling people whatever they want to be called, including all the he/him, ze/zer/, she/hers, they/them pronouns. I'm just not going to use it myself, or about anyone else unless they specifically ask.
What a great analogy! And a very simple distillation which really dates back to the Bible or before: do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. ALL people should be treated with respect. And, to quote the Drive-By Truckers, "Despite our best intentions, it pains me to report we keep swinging for the fences and coming up a little short."
It’s very difficult for anyone to not bring an identity to politics. Identity is the DNA of politics. Where it becomes problem is when that identity eclipses everything else (including manners and everyday conversation) that needs to get done or other things that might be, yes, more important to the collective in the present. It doesn’t mean that an individual’s concern(s) aren’t important they’re just not an immediate priority. In other words, you might want to redecorate your house but if it’s on fire that’s not the big problem before you.
For example, I’m a dedicated, nearly fanatical, environmentalist (just look at my avatar). I think the environment is the issue umbrella over everything and there’s not one single problem that is as impactful to as many people as the environment and the climate crisis. My life is great and I have the luxury of that being my prime concern. Foremost in my mind right now is the threat to voting rights and the enthusiastic dismissal of democracy by Republicans (that and wanting to know what will happen in Season 3 of The Mandolorian). If that goes down the result is power returning to a party that gives fuck-all about the environment. If it means electing someone that might get campaign donations from Gas Company X or is a ‘corporate Dem’ but will vote for eliminating gerrymandering, reforming the filibuster, and strengthen our voting rights with national requirements then I’ll vote for that person. That’s how this works. I’m still an environmentalist but I’m also a pragmatic voter…and a fucking adult.
This is not to dismiss all of the other things that are important and who they affect. It shows a great deal of empathy to try and right a wrong when that wrong doesn’t affect you most directly. We also have the ability to multitask. That ability only goes so far for anyone. Chez used to say that everyone has a limited amount of outrage and some things you just can’t give a shit about. I’ll leave it to other people to pull the wagon on those things.
As you, Ben, cited in your article about your neighbors trying to school you on gender and social constructs…well, to those that derail a small talk conversation with something like that to them I say, “After 18 months in lockdown try have a normal know-your-neighbor conversation without beating on them with your identity stick”.
EXTREMELY good point. It's just that white cis guys like me don't have to go that route because everything is biased in our favor. I like the pragmatism; it's what I embrace as well, but then I'm in my 50s. Get what's possible. I want the same things you want but we can't have everything we want. Just how it works when half the country sees you as alien.
My whole family is republican; it is so ingrained in their identity that telling them not to vote the ticket would be like telling them not to breathe. They are going down with the ship because even though they don't agree with the entire current platform, "it's still better than letting the Dems/Libtards win." Meanwhile Democrats are so overly woke, they will turn on their own in a heartbeat. It doesn't take much for "just enough" people to sit out any one election, or protest vote, to give the republicans a wire thin victory. I had to give up on attending trans support groups (while I was on HRT) because the fellow members would do nothing but complain about the people who were trying to be allies but "doing it wrong". Almost ignoring the fact there are people out there murdering trans people, taking away their healthcare, wiping their very existence away from every legal point imaginable, all they could do (in the room and online) was relentlessly complain about or cancel people for using the wrong pronouns or identity descriptors while trying to engage with them and be an ally. I see this on other fronts too, in the news and on my social feeds. Look no further than the current Billie Eilish scandal where she had the nerve to show women consensually enjoying each other's company with close proximity and unabashed physical intimacy. Oh no, she's 'queerbaiting!!!' because she has yet to disclose her sexual orientation to the pitchfork mob that is a loud but very small sliver of her fanbase. There was a similar controversy over the Charli XCX video for 'Girls'.
Sick of identity politics, wokeness, and overall political correctness--the sine qua non of today's Democratic party. The liberals truly don't get it or see it. One can be progressive without having to shove BLM, LBGTQ, Syrian refugee or whatever other identity label in my face every minute. It's one of the reasons why as a progressive moderate who deplores the Republicans (yes: deplorable), I won't join the Democratic party--that and the associated belief that the Government knows best. Even the comments on this site are difficult to stomach.
Identity politics has a place in making policy and repairing specific past systemic wrongs. If there is no accountability for past injustices to specific identity groups, the injustices will likely continue. Having said this, those who criticize genuine but perhaps clumsy efforts of "woke" allies who wish to help remedy these wrongs have made many potential allies become alienated from this kind of work. We do need humility and grace, as K. P. Mauros in the comments below articulates, as we gently try to help others understand and help in situations they have not had to understand or help with before.
I think it is way out of hand. All the comedies I grew up with would have something or somethings that would be another reason for the woke crowd to complain about. I can't see how comedy can survive these people. Now more than ever we need to be able to laugh.
I read your article, Ben, and agree with the premise very much: that identity politics have gone too far. Bill Maher rails against this all the time on his brilliant show on HBO. I can't understand this obsession with names and all that when Republicans are hell bent on destroying the republic. Shouldn't we be rallying against this incursion from within than obsess over what to call people?
I wouldn't be listening to the likes of that butterfaced fucktard Bill Maher. He's gone completely off the rails these past several years and has been inching more to the right as time goes by. This is an asshole who demands we develop empathy and compassion for Drumpf supporters the way we would people of Islamic faith every time there's a terrorist attack overseas. His best before date had expired a long, LOOOOONG time ago, and he's losing more and more left leaning folks with his brand of humorless, offensive excuse of comedy.
There are far better shows that are more informative and very funny than anything Bill Maher dregs up!
I am a White Male, and I feel like the common understanding of "identity politics" is a really watered down version of saying "well they are just using the (fill in the blank Black/woman) card". Meaning it's basically saying that leading with your identity when interacting with political discussion makes it more divisive, but I worry that it is only seen to be divisive by mainly White people and mainly Men. Put another way you would not say it is divisive to say "As a teacher, I have take issue with Charter Schools." Your identity is pretty important to the conversation as it helps clarify where your position begins from. It may seem onerous to people like myself (again White guy) because we are in society seen as the default, and so we don't have to think about it as much, so when we are forced to it makes many of us feel uncomfortable, that initial gut reaction referred to as "White fragility" (another sticking point). Ultimately, I feel like while it may feel like it's losing us ground especially with awful Republican messaging, it ultimately energizes our base (a growing BIPOC population) to let them know that when they lead with who they are in the discussion we don't automatically poo-poo them. We have think of politics as long and short game. The Republicans play the very short, instant gratitification game and the Democrats should lean into showing support as a big tent party, and we as White people should show support because it leads to record turnout in GA, TX, and AZ. Which will turn off the moment we disregard BIPOC folks. So my advice is sometimes just not say anything, and listen to what is said instead of worrying that people lead with their lens.
I generally follow that rule (not saying anything) and do my best to listen. However, I feel the movement has seeped into society (and the Democratic Party) in an unhealthy way that is fostering more division. I think identity politics has its merits, just as Marxism does, but only as a lens through which to analyze history/society. It's one of many tools and an interesting perspective, but it cannot become the dominant ideology. Taken to an extreme, it becomes cult like and potentially dangerous.
I see the worry that we can have about the cult like nature of unchecked social justice. In fact it was one of the things I had to learn to get over because doing social justice work on the cake of that is social theory and critical thinking, the frosting is grace and humility. Grace to allow people to learn where they are, and not expect them to be in the same level of experience, education and understanding. Humility in that It is a tough pill to swallow to learn as someone who wants change that people just don't owe you anything, and that I know for me I really struggle with that. Just recently a BIPOC female student had a conversation with another BIPOC racial justice facilitator, and the facilitator said, "I appreciate your passion, but it's going to be important to have grace, and be patient with where people are." The student said, "I want to I just can't mentally get there yet." That was powerful to me because it's not just a one way conversation BIPOC to White it's literally 320 million different conversations that take into consideration all the things we bring with us. I know it might be scary to think of a bunch of scared active college students running around throwing social theory and uber-liberal norms into the atmosphere, and it may seem "cultish"....but they are kids, barely new adults on their journey to learn the eventual hardships that truly come with making the change they want happen, same thing with other liberals. We may need to afford them some grace to say. I remember when I was in my 20's and was like "why isn't anyone doing anything!" We want so badly to be heard, and it's a radical position to say "I hear you, what do you need from me."
I think your point that we white guys (I'm one too) need to listen more to see how we can be true allies is great--really the whole post is.
So do we ignore issues of race and gender in order to have a better chance of winning? I will agree that maybe things on college campuses have gone a bit far (college is where you're supposed to be exposed to stuff that makes you uncomfortable so you can learn how to think for yourself, not to seek safe spaces where you won't be challenged), but racism, homophobia/transphobia, and misogyny are real societal problems that need to be addressed. And we're getting better about that, but we've still got a really long way to go.
I think this is where the problem lies -- all of those issues are of course incredibly important. The problem is when militant activists start trying to control the language around the debate, and thus exert undue control over it. It's like some sort of weird religion you can only be involved in if you know all the terminology. I can't keep up with it all and thus don't pay it much attention.
Great take on it. I'm just wary of blaming the Purity Left, as y'all call it. They are indeed a real problem for us moving forward but I don't really want to get into both-sides-ism either. But I think you're right--we just need to focus on what's important regardless of what others think. I love the energy of the young people on our side, but I also know how full of shit I was when I was in my late teens and early twenties. How do we, as a movement, focus on the really important parts?
I gotta say...If someone has a problem with so called "political identity" and "wokeness" to the point where they vote against the Democratic Party because they're too "woke"...well then, the problem is on them! And my advice to them on that problem of theirs is to...you know...GROW THE GODDAMNED FUCK UP, NOW!!!
100%. Also, the Right is heavily engaged in identity politics, they just don't acknowledge it.
I just don't pay much attention to it. I have difficulty keeping up with all the terminology, so I go by one simple rule: All people should be treated with respect regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. I feel like there is so much detail in identity politics that is is overwhelming, much like the list of side effects at the end of a prescription drug advertisement.
Couldn't agree more. I have no problem calling people whatever they want to be called, including all the he/him, ze/zer/, she/hers, they/them pronouns. I'm just not going to use it myself, or about anyone else unless they specifically ask.
What a great analogy! And a very simple distillation which really dates back to the Bible or before: do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. ALL people should be treated with respect. And, to quote the Drive-By Truckers, "Despite our best intentions, it pains me to report we keep swinging for the fences and coming up a little short."
It’s very difficult for anyone to not bring an identity to politics. Identity is the DNA of politics. Where it becomes problem is when that identity eclipses everything else (including manners and everyday conversation) that needs to get done or other things that might be, yes, more important to the collective in the present. It doesn’t mean that an individual’s concern(s) aren’t important they’re just not an immediate priority. In other words, you might want to redecorate your house but if it’s on fire that’s not the big problem before you.
For example, I’m a dedicated, nearly fanatical, environmentalist (just look at my avatar). I think the environment is the issue umbrella over everything and there’s not one single problem that is as impactful to as many people as the environment and the climate crisis. My life is great and I have the luxury of that being my prime concern. Foremost in my mind right now is the threat to voting rights and the enthusiastic dismissal of democracy by Republicans (that and wanting to know what will happen in Season 3 of The Mandolorian). If that goes down the result is power returning to a party that gives fuck-all about the environment. If it means electing someone that might get campaign donations from Gas Company X or is a ‘corporate Dem’ but will vote for eliminating gerrymandering, reforming the filibuster, and strengthen our voting rights with national requirements then I’ll vote for that person. That’s how this works. I’m still an environmentalist but I’m also a pragmatic voter…and a fucking adult.
This is not to dismiss all of the other things that are important and who they affect. It shows a great deal of empathy to try and right a wrong when that wrong doesn’t affect you most directly. We also have the ability to multitask. That ability only goes so far for anyone. Chez used to say that everyone has a limited amount of outrage and some things you just can’t give a shit about. I’ll leave it to other people to pull the wagon on those things.
As you, Ben, cited in your article about your neighbors trying to school you on gender and social constructs…well, to those that derail a small talk conversation with something like that to them I say, “After 18 months in lockdown try have a normal know-your-neighbor conversation without beating on them with your identity stick”.
EXTREMELY good point. It's just that white cis guys like me don't have to go that route because everything is biased in our favor. I like the pragmatism; it's what I embrace as well, but then I'm in my 50s. Get what's possible. I want the same things you want but we can't have everything we want. Just how it works when half the country sees you as alien.
My whole family is republican; it is so ingrained in their identity that telling them not to vote the ticket would be like telling them not to breathe. They are going down with the ship because even though they don't agree with the entire current platform, "it's still better than letting the Dems/Libtards win." Meanwhile Democrats are so overly woke, they will turn on their own in a heartbeat. It doesn't take much for "just enough" people to sit out any one election, or protest vote, to give the republicans a wire thin victory. I had to give up on attending trans support groups (while I was on HRT) because the fellow members would do nothing but complain about the people who were trying to be allies but "doing it wrong". Almost ignoring the fact there are people out there murdering trans people, taking away their healthcare, wiping their very existence away from every legal point imaginable, all they could do (in the room and online) was relentlessly complain about or cancel people for using the wrong pronouns or identity descriptors while trying to engage with them and be an ally. I see this on other fronts too, in the news and on my social feeds. Look no further than the current Billie Eilish scandal where she had the nerve to show women consensually enjoying each other's company with close proximity and unabashed physical intimacy. Oh no, she's 'queerbaiting!!!' because she has yet to disclose her sexual orientation to the pitchfork mob that is a loud but very small sliver of her fanbase. There was a similar controversy over the Charli XCX video for 'Girls'.
Sick of identity politics, wokeness, and overall political correctness--the sine qua non of today's Democratic party. The liberals truly don't get it or see it. One can be progressive without having to shove BLM, LBGTQ, Syrian refugee or whatever other identity label in my face every minute. It's one of the reasons why as a progressive moderate who deplores the Republicans (yes: deplorable), I won't join the Democratic party--that and the associated belief that the Government knows best. Even the comments on this site are difficult to stomach.
So are you gonna sit out every election from here on out because you feel Democrats are "too woke" for the likes of you?
No, whiner...I vote even when the choice sucks.
Well bless yer precious lil' heart now!
Identity politics has a place in making policy and repairing specific past systemic wrongs. If there is no accountability for past injustices to specific identity groups, the injustices will likely continue. Having said this, those who criticize genuine but perhaps clumsy efforts of "woke" allies who wish to help remedy these wrongs have made many potential allies become alienated from this kind of work. We do need humility and grace, as K. P. Mauros in the comments below articulates, as we gently try to help others understand and help in situations they have not had to understand or help with before.
I think it is way out of hand. All the comedies I grew up with would have something or somethings that would be another reason for the woke crowd to complain about. I can't see how comedy can survive these people. Now more than ever we need to be able to laugh.
I read your article, Ben, and agree with the premise very much: that identity politics have gone too far. Bill Maher rails against this all the time on his brilliant show on HBO. I can't understand this obsession with names and all that when Republicans are hell bent on destroying the republic. Shouldn't we be rallying against this incursion from within than obsess over what to call people?
I wouldn't be listening to the likes of that butterfaced fucktard Bill Maher. He's gone completely off the rails these past several years and has been inching more to the right as time goes by. This is an asshole who demands we develop empathy and compassion for Drumpf supporters the way we would people of Islamic faith every time there's a terrorist attack overseas. His best before date had expired a long, LOOOOONG time ago, and he's losing more and more left leaning folks with his brand of humorless, offensive excuse of comedy.
There are far better shows that are more informative and very funny than anything Bill Maher dregs up!