Ben, I think that you are applying a narrow perspective to a broader question. I am a white male, born and raised in a Christian household and with no Ashkenazi ancestry. I could become a "convert" to Judaism, but how would that affect my "race" in practical terms?
A set of beliefs does not create a race of people. It is unhelpful to overanalyze it to the point that one must criticize a black woman for pointing out that race is about (by definition) being a part of a taxonomic group or belonging to the same genetic stock.
One's genetics is not a choice. One's religion is a choice. Any hatred or division along either line is inhumanity. It is not helpful to diminish the movement against hatred by granularizing its victims.
Hey Dave, you could become a religious Jew, but not ethnically Jewish (or "genetically" Jewish). I am not a religious Jew. I am ethnically (part) Jewish in that I have Jewish ancestry and was brought up in Jewish culture. That make sense?
Not to belabor the point, but I don't understand what Whoopi Goldberg's skin color has to do with anything? She's a prominent figure on the left and has continued to make dangerously ignorant and harmful statements about Jews and the history of the Holocaust. She could be green with yellow dots for all I care. I don't expect any special treatment because I'm Jewish. if I say something dumb/offensive, I should be called out for it. Ditto for Goldberg.
The problem with your criticism of Goldberg is you're denying her perspective as a woman of color as you claim she's denying your Jewish perspective. Even in your own argument to claim Jews are a race, you mainly refer to and use the word ethnicity. So while you and Goldberg agree on the atrocity of the holocaust, you're in a pissing match over semantics because you want to claim both "antisemitism" in addition to "racism" to fight against the very real threats (that you and Goldberg also agree upon) from the Right. So why not do some research instead of fluffing your feathers and clutching your pearls like Tucker Carlson. "For example, people might identify their race as Aboriginal, African American or Black, Asian, European American or White, Native American, Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander, Māori, or some other race. Ethnicity refers to shared cultural characteristics such as language, ancestry, practices, and beliefs." -- American Psychological Association. "Race refers to the concept of dividing people into groups on the basis of various sets of physical characteristics and the process of ascribing social meaning to those groups. Ethnicity describes the culture of people in a given geographic region, including their language, heritage, religion and customs." -- Washington University St. Louis. "OMB requires five minimum categories (White, Black or African American, American Indian or Alaska Native, Asian, and Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander) for race." -- US Census Bureau. I could go on. So why not have a discussion about where the lines of race, ethnicity, and religion intersect and if these definitions need to evolve to reflect the modern era. You seem to go out of your way to dismiss being "white" even though you have benefitted from your skin tone throughout your life in countless ways from being able to jog through a neighborhood without getting shot, being able to shop freely without being glared at, being able to have your home appraised for full market value, for being able to apply for work without triggering employer prejudices, etc. Just sayin'. There's a greater conversation that needs to happen. You have such an open and eloquent mind on countless other political and social subjects, perhaps its time to bring that thinking to lead a conversation instead of shutting someone else down.
"Denying her perspective as a woman of color"? What has Goldberg's skin color got to do with anything? She's spreading ahistorical nonsense about the Holocaust and Jewish identity that she was knows is wrong. She then did it again.
If you read the piece you'll notice that I'm not claiming I'm "white" or "not white". I'm saying views on my "whiteness" are entirely dependent on the politics of the observer, making the whole thing even more confusing for Jews. My point is that there are many forms of discrimination and Jews face a particular type that is apparently difficult for others to comprehend. I find this to be incredibly frustrating.
I agree that I have some forms of privilege black people in this country don't have. They have some privileges I don't have, like getting blamed for the world's economic problems, apparently wanting to drink the blood of children, controlling the banks, controlling the media, spreading Covid etc, etc. And if you think being Jewish doesn't trigger employer prejudice, you are very sorely mistaken. I don't see this as a competition though, and I'm not trying to win the oppression olympics. I'm just asking that people recognize this prejudice and stop trying to minimize it, that's all.
Goldberg never said victims of the Holocaust were't killed because they were Jewish. She never once said that. She said it wasn't about race. To her (and to all of the evidence I linked to), race is about skin color and exterior appearance according to the five global standards of race. She mentions her lived in experience of being targeted solely for the way she looks. Even you, while trying to claim Jews are a race and not an ethnicity or a religion, only use the words ethnicity in your defense. But since you feel Jews are a race, you can only misread her comments that the Holocaust was not about victims being Jewish. You side with the Nazis by using their language. As far as I've read, the Nazis were trying to cleanse the white race of everything Hitler didn't agree with or felt were impure, this German/Christian/Catholic "master race" would exclude whites of other religions, ethnicities, nationalities, deformations, mental and physical disabilities, sexual orientation, deviating gender identity, etc. not to mention everyone of a non-white race. So instead of agreeing with Goldberg it was an atrocity, you malign her as anti Semitic, which you equate to racist. If you feel Jews are a race, why not show documented backup that others agree with you that Jews are a race versus an ethnicity or a religion. Perhaps it's time to add Jewish to the US Census and what's currently widely accepted as race? Make your case, and make the rules. If someone converts, do they switch races, ethnicities, or just religions?
Race is a biological myth and a social reality. The study of genetics proves this conclusively, so I'm reticent to use the term. Ethnicity, at least for me, is a better way of describing different groups of people with distinct genetic ancestries. But you can't say "ethnicicism" so "racism" has to do.
If you read my piece, I have never once described Jews as a "race", because I don't believe the term is accurate. Blacks aren't a "race" either given the wide diversity of genetic ancestry in the "black" population (a West African has more in common genetically with a West European than they would an East African for example). I prefer "ethnicity" for lack of a better term.
That being said, the Holocaust and Nazism was all about "race", whether you believe in the concept or not. They believed Jews were a separate, inferior race and murdered them because of it. Whoopi Goldberg said it wasn't about race or racism. She said the Holocaust was about white people fighting other white people. More specifically, she said: "This is White people doing it to White people, so y’all gonna fight amongst yourselves".
Read that again: "Y'all gonna fight amongst yourselves".
This is not only wrong, but monstrously offensive. "We" (whoever "we" are) weren't "fighting amongst ourselves". This was a one sided genocide. Nazis burned Jews in ovens because they were viewed as subhuman vermin. This was based on an ideology of strict racial categories. A similar philosophy defined black life in the Americans and in South Africa. Are you suggesting we shouldn't call that racism because that would be playing into the hands of "the oppressor"? Are you siding with slave owners by using their language? Of course not.
Goldberg's stunning ignorance is born out of the left's increasingly insane identity politics, where Jews can't be a minority, and antisemitism can't be racism because Jews are "white". I was trying to be accurate in my piece, that Jewish identity is complex, that we have a distinct genetic ancestry, and that we suffer forms of prejudice others don't see. You can call it racism if that helps.
So yes, maybe we should add "Jewish" as a race on the census. Not because it's biologically accurate, but because it might help people understand that antisemitism is real and we can't be lumped in with "white people" (again, an inaccurate description), because we have our own unique history.
Absolutely. Her comment was on "race" - which I suspect she has a lifetime of experience with - not ethnicity. That's all.
Guaranteed I won't become any religious anything - too much death and destruction it its wake for my liking!
Ben, I think that you are applying a narrow perspective to a broader question. I am a white male, born and raised in a Christian household and with no Ashkenazi ancestry. I could become a "convert" to Judaism, but how would that affect my "race" in practical terms?
A set of beliefs does not create a race of people. It is unhelpful to overanalyze it to the point that one must criticize a black woman for pointing out that race is about (by definition) being a part of a taxonomic group or belonging to the same genetic stock.
One's genetics is not a choice. One's religion is a choice. Any hatred or division along either line is inhumanity. It is not helpful to diminish the movement against hatred by granularizing its victims.
Hey Dave, you could become a religious Jew, but not ethnically Jewish (or "genetically" Jewish). I am not a religious Jew. I am ethnically (part) Jewish in that I have Jewish ancestry and was brought up in Jewish culture. That make sense?
Not to belabor the point, but I don't understand what Whoopi Goldberg's skin color has to do with anything? She's a prominent figure on the left and has continued to make dangerously ignorant and harmful statements about Jews and the history of the Holocaust. She could be green with yellow dots for all I care. I don't expect any special treatment because I'm Jewish. if I say something dumb/offensive, I should be called out for it. Ditto for Goldberg.
The problem with your criticism of Goldberg is you're denying her perspective as a woman of color as you claim she's denying your Jewish perspective. Even in your own argument to claim Jews are a race, you mainly refer to and use the word ethnicity. So while you and Goldberg agree on the atrocity of the holocaust, you're in a pissing match over semantics because you want to claim both "antisemitism" in addition to "racism" to fight against the very real threats (that you and Goldberg also agree upon) from the Right. So why not do some research instead of fluffing your feathers and clutching your pearls like Tucker Carlson. "For example, people might identify their race as Aboriginal, African American or Black, Asian, European American or White, Native American, Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander, Māori, or some other race. Ethnicity refers to shared cultural characteristics such as language, ancestry, practices, and beliefs." -- American Psychological Association. "Race refers to the concept of dividing people into groups on the basis of various sets of physical characteristics and the process of ascribing social meaning to those groups. Ethnicity describes the culture of people in a given geographic region, including their language, heritage, religion and customs." -- Washington University St. Louis. "OMB requires five minimum categories (White, Black or African American, American Indian or Alaska Native, Asian, and Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander) for race." -- US Census Bureau. I could go on. So why not have a discussion about where the lines of race, ethnicity, and religion intersect and if these definitions need to evolve to reflect the modern era. You seem to go out of your way to dismiss being "white" even though you have benefitted from your skin tone throughout your life in countless ways from being able to jog through a neighborhood without getting shot, being able to shop freely without being glared at, being able to have your home appraised for full market value, for being able to apply for work without triggering employer prejudices, etc. Just sayin'. There's a greater conversation that needs to happen. You have such an open and eloquent mind on countless other political and social subjects, perhaps its time to bring that thinking to lead a conversation instead of shutting someone else down.
"Denying her perspective as a woman of color"? What has Goldberg's skin color got to do with anything? She's spreading ahistorical nonsense about the Holocaust and Jewish identity that she was knows is wrong. She then did it again.
If you read the piece you'll notice that I'm not claiming I'm "white" or "not white". I'm saying views on my "whiteness" are entirely dependent on the politics of the observer, making the whole thing even more confusing for Jews. My point is that there are many forms of discrimination and Jews face a particular type that is apparently difficult for others to comprehend. I find this to be incredibly frustrating.
I agree that I have some forms of privilege black people in this country don't have. They have some privileges I don't have, like getting blamed for the world's economic problems, apparently wanting to drink the blood of children, controlling the banks, controlling the media, spreading Covid etc, etc. And if you think being Jewish doesn't trigger employer prejudice, you are very sorely mistaken. I don't see this as a competition though, and I'm not trying to win the oppression olympics. I'm just asking that people recognize this prejudice and stop trying to minimize it, that's all.
Goldberg never said victims of the Holocaust were't killed because they were Jewish. She never once said that. She said it wasn't about race. To her (and to all of the evidence I linked to), race is about skin color and exterior appearance according to the five global standards of race. She mentions her lived in experience of being targeted solely for the way she looks. Even you, while trying to claim Jews are a race and not an ethnicity or a religion, only use the words ethnicity in your defense. But since you feel Jews are a race, you can only misread her comments that the Holocaust was not about victims being Jewish. You side with the Nazis by using their language. As far as I've read, the Nazis were trying to cleanse the white race of everything Hitler didn't agree with or felt were impure, this German/Christian/Catholic "master race" would exclude whites of other religions, ethnicities, nationalities, deformations, mental and physical disabilities, sexual orientation, deviating gender identity, etc. not to mention everyone of a non-white race. So instead of agreeing with Goldberg it was an atrocity, you malign her as anti Semitic, which you equate to racist. If you feel Jews are a race, why not show documented backup that others agree with you that Jews are a race versus an ethnicity or a religion. Perhaps it's time to add Jewish to the US Census and what's currently widely accepted as race? Make your case, and make the rules. If someone converts, do they switch races, ethnicities, or just religions?
Race is a biological myth and a social reality. The study of genetics proves this conclusively, so I'm reticent to use the term. Ethnicity, at least for me, is a better way of describing different groups of people with distinct genetic ancestries. But you can't say "ethnicicism" so "racism" has to do.
If you read my piece, I have never once described Jews as a "race", because I don't believe the term is accurate. Blacks aren't a "race" either given the wide diversity of genetic ancestry in the "black" population (a West African has more in common genetically with a West European than they would an East African for example). I prefer "ethnicity" for lack of a better term.
That being said, the Holocaust and Nazism was all about "race", whether you believe in the concept or not. They believed Jews were a separate, inferior race and murdered them because of it. Whoopi Goldberg said it wasn't about race or racism. She said the Holocaust was about white people fighting other white people. More specifically, she said: "This is White people doing it to White people, so y’all gonna fight amongst yourselves".
Read that again: "Y'all gonna fight amongst yourselves".
This is not only wrong, but monstrously offensive. "We" (whoever "we" are) weren't "fighting amongst ourselves". This was a one sided genocide. Nazis burned Jews in ovens because they were viewed as subhuman vermin. This was based on an ideology of strict racial categories. A similar philosophy defined black life in the Americans and in South Africa. Are you suggesting we shouldn't call that racism because that would be playing into the hands of "the oppressor"? Are you siding with slave owners by using their language? Of course not.
Goldberg's stunning ignorance is born out of the left's increasingly insane identity politics, where Jews can't be a minority, and antisemitism can't be racism because Jews are "white". I was trying to be accurate in my piece, that Jewish identity is complex, that we have a distinct genetic ancestry, and that we suffer forms of prejudice others don't see. You can call it racism if that helps.
So yes, maybe we should add "Jewish" as a race on the census. Not because it's biologically accurate, but because it might help people understand that antisemitism is real and we can't be lumped in with "white people" (again, an inaccurate description), because we have our own unique history.
https://www.verywellmind.com/difference-between-race-and-ethnicity-5074205
Another eloquent read.